Episode 204
Cathartic Songs
"The quintessential cover of a song that yearns for transformation, the ultimate anthem of self-reflection, and a number full of nuance that gets me every. single. time..."
In the latest episode of Themes and Variation, I (your stalwart podcast shepherd, Mahea Lee) am joined by magnificent musician and occasional co-host Jeremy Young as well as singer, producer, multi-instrumentalist, and all-around treasure of the Soundfly community, Lana Cenčić to discuss "Cathartic Songs."
This episode features selections from the catalogs of Baby Huey & the Babysitters, Michael Jackson, and Simon Dawes. What's the maximum amount of emotion that can be carried by a single human voice? If you ask nicely, will the man in the mirror ever change his ways? Is it possible for a music school graduate to love a song for nearly two decades without realizing it contains more than one time change?
Follow us on X (Twitter) @ThemesVariation for news about the show including upcoming episodes and more!
Learn more about Lana here.
And be sure to check out the new Soundfly Shop where you can find some sweet Themes and Variation merch — including a mug that's perfect for holding everything from coffee to... tea.
Transcript
[00:00:19] Using the discount code PODCAST, you can get access to the full range of premium courses available at soundfly.com and an invitation to our online community for less than $10 a month.
[:[00:00:50] Soundfly. Creative content for people who make music.
[:[00:01:28] Track: [music]
[:[00:01:48] I gotta tell you guys, this started out as a weird one for me. If you've listened to the show before, you may have suspected that a bit of lateral thinking typically goes into my song selection process, but I just couldn't figure out how to be clever with this theme.
[:[00:02:13] As always, if you like the show and want to throw me and the team a little encouragement, don't forget to subscribe to Themes and Variation on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you go for podcasts.
[:[00:02:34] And with that, I hope you enjoyed the episode, "Cathartic Songs."
[:[00:02:51] Jeremy: I'm great. How are you, Mahea?
[:[00:02:56] Jeremy: I know, I miss being here. But I was also kind of on tour, so that would have been complicated and a distraction.
[:[00:03:04] Jeremy: I mean, it was great. It was a really short tour, which is always good because I'm in a band with Ian, Ian famously of Soundfly's CEO, uh...
[:[00:03:13] Jeremy: Of, yeah, of being our bosses, also my bandmate, but, uh, he has a giant family and a business to run. And so when we can go out on the road for any number of dates, it's always like a pleasure. But you know, when you're doing just two or three shows, it's like very easy and great. So, yeah.
[:[00:03:38] Jeremy: Um, we played at the Fayetteville Public Library, which was awarded Library of the Year a few years back.
[:[00:03:47] Jeremy: Yeah, it was amazing. But, um, I kind of forgot that the Walton family, like, you know, the giant sort of billionaire family that started and runs, uh, Walmart, like, they're from Northwestern Arkansas, and so the whole city of Fayetteville has like Walmart family money.
[:[00:04:12] Mahea: And low priced.
[:[00:04:16] Mahea: Um, I don't want to keep our guest waiting too long as much as I would love to talk about Fayetteville. That's a different show.
[:[00:04:22] Mahea: We're very excited to be joined today by Lana Cenčić. Did I say that correctly?
[:[00:04:28] Mahea: Can you say it correctly for me, please?
[:[00:04:43] Mahea: Tsen-chich.
[:[00:04:49] Mahea: Oh, you totally should.
[:[00:04:54] Mahea: I have like a subtle lisp, so it's a tricky one for me, but I'm gonna, I'm gonna work on that for the future.
[:[00:05:09] Lana: I'm all about like catharsis and like healing and transformation, and you know it's kind of like my life is a journey. Like I mean, all of the titles were really just interesting and I was like "oh yeah I could do this one, I could do that one," and so much inspiration.
[:[00:05:26] Lana: Yeah so it was hard to choose but then I was like, "okay I gotta do this quick you know okay let's do cathartic songs."
[:[00:05:42] We'll get to your picks in a second, but were there other songs that either of you considered?
[:[00:06:21] And then they had to buy me the little cassette. And you know, Thriller was just like playing up and down. I was making my little dance moves, you know? I was just like crazy about it. And this is also an album which, you know, to this day when I hear it, it's just like, I don't know, I can be in any shitty mood and it's gonna just lift me up.
[:[00:06:43] Jeremy: I had a list. I mean, in a way, I chose the first song that came to my head with this theme, and I felt like I would have been abandoning it if I hadn't chosen it, because it was the first thing that came to my head. But just in general, like, I feel like I listen to a lot of music that just blasts out and has these, like, sort of moments of elevation.
[:[00:07:12] Track: [music]
[:[00:07:35] Track: [music]
[:[00:08:01] Whenever there's like a climactic moment in one of her songs, like the song "Emotions," she can kind of just get to that higher level. And it's like, there's just something that... it's just like a moment of catharsis, like a moment of just sort of like, uh, yeah.
[:[00:08:22] Lana: I totally agree. And when you go and listen to a lot of live music, I find I had a lot of like experiences with instrumental music, um, like for example, one very, very significant moment was when I went to see Keith Jarrett in concert.
[:[00:08:40] Lana: I think that was in Perugia, like in that little Italian small town, the, the jazz festival that they have there every year.
[:[00:09:09] It was really weird, actually. My friends were like, "are you okay?" I had this really visceral, like, I don't know, energetic experience, like, it just transformed me into some other dimension and I will never ever forget that. But before that show started, like, you know, he came on stage and he started just like, "stop taking pictures!" And he started, like, yelling at the people and then, like, I'm not gonna do the show and he left the stage and everybody was like, "what's going on with this guy?" Like he was really rude.
[:[00:09:41] Lana: Yeah, and then like half hour later like 45 minutes later I'm just like in nirvana like floating, you know? Like off up in the air like meditating, like shaking.
[:[00:09:54] Jeremy: Let's let's go for it.
[:[00:09:56] Track: [music]
[:[00:10:19] Jeremy: We're listening to Baby Huey and the Babysitters' version of "A Change Is Gonna Come." Baby Huey, who was born in 1944, James Thomas Ramey. This is the only, like, official album that he ever put out. There were some 45s that he did with the band, but this album isn't even really an album.
[:[00:10:57] The album is called The Baby Huey Story: The Living Legend, but it's just a collection of like live, um, songs.
[:[00:11:09] Jeremy: choice. I know I've been thinking about that a lot. I'm not totally sure that there's deep reasoning behind calling, calling the album that, but the record was produced by Curtis Mayfield, who was a huge fan of Baby Huey and the band.
[:[00:11:37] But, uh, Baby Huey, he gave himself that name. It was sort of like owning his weight issues. I mean, he was like a big dude. He kind of had a baby face. He's like a big personality, like a character, absolutely a gigantic stage presence as well, but you know, he struggled with his weight throughout his life. He was like 350, 400 pounds. It was a big dude.
[:[00:12:22] And I think that's sort of where the album title came from. Like this idea that like, when he was alive, I think he was just this living legend. Like he was just walking amongst us as like this massive personality. Ironically, the band never really reached that kind of acclaim while they were still together and when he was still alive.
[:[00:12:54] But then another thing was that Curtis Mayfield had invited them to record, but actually secretly, like, didn't want the rest of the band. He only wanted to sign Baby Huey as a singer, and then he wanted to maybe put a band together or something. But Mayfield wasn't really interested in the Babysitters, like his backing band. Yeah. And so I think that kind of created a little bit of a rift.
[:[00:13:26] So anyway, this is not his song. Most of the songs on the record are actually Curtis Mayfield songs or covers. There's a few originals, but "A Change Is Gonna Come" was written by Sam Cooke in 1964.
[:[00:13:42] Jeremy: Yep. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we did. And I don't want to go too deeply into the original version, but um, There's some connections between this song and the theme. But uh, the Baby Huey version of it is what I think of when I think of catharsis. You just have to listen to a couple... I mean, it's nearly ten minutes long, but you just have to listen to like, a couple minutes to get this feeling of like, "He's giving it everything."
[:[00:14:28] Mahea: I like when you can hear that, like when the like actual tone seems to change a little bit and you're like, "Oh, he stepped back for that one."
[:[00:14:46] I don't know, it's just an amazing performance of a really beautiful, amazing song. The original was more sultry, sort of more in that like, Motown kind of style, like pretty strings and some horn stabs.
[:[00:15:09] Jeremy: Baby Huey and the Babysitters, they take those horn stabs and they like level you with them. They're like sledgehammers. The whole drum kit is firing off when the horns are going. It's just a big song.
[:[00:15:37] Jeremy: Earlier today, I was re listening to this song and then, you know, the YouTube algorithm was serving me like different versions of it. I already knew about the Otis Redding version. I knew about Solomon Burke's version. The Fugees did it, Seal did it, but the YouTube algorithm served me a version by Patti LaBelle, which I had never heard before.
[:[00:16:21] Jeremy: Oh my god, I was almost brought to tears, and it almost made me change my choice at the last possible second to the Patti LaBelle version.
[:[00:16:33] Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, like I said, like, I think of this version when I think of the idea of catharsis, because like, it's just sort of like letting go.
[:[00:17:02] So Cooke was just sort of like stewing in this feeling of like, how come we're not moving the ball forward? What else needs to change for our country to change? And, the other side of the coin is that Bob Dylan wrote "Blowing in the Wind." Sam Cooke heard it, was like, brought to tears by how beautiful this song was and how such a poignant statement on racism in America could come from a white person.
[:[00:17:29] Mahea: I had no idea.
[:[00:17:44] A change has to come. He literally is like about to go into rehab or had just come out of rehab and he's feeling this, this change. Yeah. It's like a nine minute song, the Baby Huey version. But in the middle of it, he kind of breaks down. He starts talking, he's telling a story, he's improvising, kind of playing this like preacher role.
[:[00:18:29] Like, it's got to happen if we like, scream and break through the wall, because otherwise nothing's going to happen. I like that dichotomy in the song. And yeah, Baby Huey just gives it, and he just screams like hell, and uh, it just gets me every time.
[:[00:18:59] Mahea: Do you remember the first time you heard this song?
[:[00:19:34] I don't know, but it was a collection of all of the sort of really resonant, political, important songs that the Wu Tang Clan and the different members had sampled. And Ghostface Killah sampled another Baby Huey song. The song was called Hard Times, which was also a Curtis Mayfield song. But it was the Baby Huey version of Hard Times that got sampled by Ghostface Killah.
[:[00:20:17] I checked it out and then I listened to the entire album and I was like, "Whoa, he did 'A Change Is Gonna Come." That's awesome. That's one of my favorite songs. And I listened to his version and it was like, Immediately. I was like, "wow. He made this incredible song his own."
[:[00:20:35] Jeremy: I'm 100 percent sure I did.
[:[00:20:38] Jeremy: Like, I think I sat down and I put this album on the first time and I just, like, could not turn it off. And it's kind of like that with the entire compilation. The Wu Tang Clan are pretty, like, substantial artists in and of themselves, but what they have done over the course of that group's career with regards to sampling, It's fascinating.
[:[00:21:21] Mahea: That's an interesting way to discover music, too, that I feel like is... like, it's a little more recent. Like, I guess you could have dug through and found things and read liner notes and the whole deal at one point, but, like, it's pretty new that you can just google what samples are on this track and find music that way.
[:[00:21:39] Lana: I was gonna ask you how, how did you... like, did you Shazam samples?
[:[00:21:53] But whosampled.com is like this incredible resource. Like you could pretty much Google... or Google... now, now we're just using Google as a way to say "search," um, but yeah, you could just search like any song that comes to mind or any... like whether it's the sample or the... or the new song and it'll just come up and highly recommend it. Moving on.
[:[00:22:20] Jeremy: No, I think I've got more thoughts about the idea of catharsis and the idea of change because we will hear Lana's song very shortly, but there is a connection with the idea of change, so I will wait.
[:[00:22:57] Track: [music]
[:[00:23:10] Lana: Yeah, much better.
[:[00:23:18] Lana: We're listening to Michael Jackson's "Man in the Mirror, I love this song."
[:[00:23:25] Jeremy: Such a good one.
[:[00:23:30] Mahea: If you had to pick one thing that you love most about this song, what would it be?
[:[00:23:37] Lana: No, no, I'm not crying. I have to think about this.
[:[00:23:47] Lana: Oh, Michael. Um, no, I'm just thinking because there's just so many things about this song that I love. I have like goosebumps from the start when I hear that melody, the "dun dun dun dun," and then his finger snapping and then just his singing in the beginning. It's already like some other dimension. And then the verse... and then the modulation. You know, this is the first time where it like, it lifts up the song like so strongly.
[:[00:24:27] Track: [music]
[:[00:24:48] Lana: Yes.
[:[00:25:04] But I've always thought that that key change is like the whole point of the song. Because he's like... the entire time he's just like keeping it really tight and he's like, "I've gotta make a change." And then when he makes the change, it's like, okay, like. It's happening. You're like, "you're walking the walk. You're talking to... like, you're doing it." You know? Like he's like sort of showing us the path, how we can be like our own personal, you know, growth, uh, inspirers, you know.
[:[00:25:36] Mahea: It probably is. I feel like there are people who would have some Celine Dion related things to say about that, but I, I absolutely do think this is... it's a prosody moment with that key change, like you guys are saying. It's an actual change that the lyrics are calling for.
[:[00:26:07] There's a performance of this song from like the '88 Grammys or something like that. It's just like him on stage pretty much alone. And then the gospel choir, like slowly, over the course of like... and it's a seven minute version too. And like, the song is over at four minutes, and then, but it just kind of like, twinkles and it keeps going, and then the choir starts walking out, and then he's just like, doing his little snaps and dances and vocal things or whatever. And then it just like builds all the way back up for three minutes. Like...
[:[00:26:50] I think one of the singers... I'm actually not sure if that's Andraé Crouch, like he comes over to him and he's like, "are you okay?" And he gives him like a little napkin or something. And then at the end of the song, he turns more and sings and whatever and then "make that change." And then like his hair is like electrified.
[:[00:27:18] Jeremy: The standing ovation by like everybody in the room, which is like Billy Joel and Lionel Richie and like everybody's just like, yep, yeah, you did it, man.
[:[00:27:30] Track: [music]
[:[00:27:36] Mahea: It's just another song where it's somebody talking about a different version of themselves that they're like... in some sort of dialogue with. But yeah, it's an interesting concept for a song. Very into it.
[:[00:27:54] Mahea: Whenever we have a one word theme, I end up looking it up in multiple dictionaries, just because I'm like, "I need to make sure there's not a clever way to do this." But yeah, I think that there is something about change or like a levy breaking kind of vibe to catharsis that I had never been overly conscious of.
[:[00:28:28] And so, screaming is a symbol in place for the idea of, like, protest and outrage or whatever.
[:[00:28:43] You know? Like that's like a moment of catharsis where you're like letting out... or this idea of like changes are happening around us and it's making us anxious or something. And we just kind of have to like scream into a pillow or into the void. I've just kind of been balancing this idea of like catharsis and screaming, just like letting loose or something in the face of change.
[:[00:29:27] Lana: It's like, if you feel that constraint or that controlled kind of energy in the beginning, the elevation and whatever comes afterwards with the choir just feels much bigger. For me, catharsis has always been connected to some sort of change or transformation. When you have that moment of catharsis, when you have something that you are able to release, it's inevitable that change will come.
[:[00:30:10] Mahea: Totally. So I'm going to give you guys a definition, not of "catharsis," but of "cathartic."
[:[00:30:18] Mahea: The definition of "cathartic" is: "providing psychological relief through the open expression of strong emotions, causing catharsis."
[:[00:30:31] Lana: So the song actually, you know, was not even written by Michael. On all the records before, like most of the songs he'd written himself. And after the huge success of Thriller, I think it sold like 70 million copies, I don't know. So then after that huge, uh, you know, success, he took like several years of time to just write music for the next album.
[:[00:31:03] And they were still looking for songs for material and they were looking for something, for some kind of an anthem like song, something that would spread some sunshine in the world. Quincy had a lot of... he worked with a lot of songwriters, you know? He had his own label and he kind of like put out the commission, you know, to write a song for Michael. All these people were sending in material and Michael liked none of the songs and he just declined everything.
[:[00:31:46] And she had writing partners and she was writing some stuff. But when that commission came in, she felt like Quincy was really adamant about finding something. It seemed important.
[:[00:32:16] And yeah, Siedah and Glen met up to write the song and apparently it all happened really fast. He just started playing these chords. Siedah was writing the lyrics. Um, she had these notes in her book and there was just this quote, it just was like "man in the mirror" and all of a sudden she like already knew what the meaning was gonna be behind the song and apparently she just couldn't write it fast enough.
[:[00:32:41] Mahea: That's amazing.
[:[00:32:57] And then she was like, "please just call me when you hear it." And he's like, "okay, okay."
[:[00:33:17] And the week after, they were already in the studio and Michael loved the way Siedah sang the song and he actually wanted to sound like her. So he invited her in the studio and he was like, "please teach me how to sing this." So she helped him, you know, to show how she sang it and everything.
[:[00:33:42] So they had this big, big choir of singers. And then she got asked to do the duet on the same album. It was the first single that came off of the Bad album, "I Just Can't Stop Loving You."
[:[00:34:06] Jeremy: That's such a great story.
[:[00:34:16] Mahea: Not bad if one of your all time favorite songs... you made famous. That's so interesting that you say that about her, though, because I was thinking about it... I can't picture anyone besides him singing this song.
[:[00:34:44] Mahea: Yeah, because it doesn't sound like an impression or anything. If anything, I was like... "Is this a more intimate Michael Jackson?" But no, it's Michael Jackson plus Siedah.
[:[00:35:04] Jeremy: This just turned into the Siedah Garrett podcast.
[:[00:35:15] Jeremy: So Mahea, what do you have in store for us?
[:[00:35:21] Jeremy: Let's do it.
[:[00:35:40] Track: [music]
[:[00:35:51] Lana: No, I've never heard of them.
[:[00:35:58] Mahea: Most of this band turned into Dawes. Not all of it.
[:[00:36:09] Mahea: Simon Dawes is, um, I guess the original version of Dawes plus Blake Mills. I think they started in high school. It's a Southern California band led by Taylor Goldsmith and Blake Mills. They did one album, two EPs before that, and then they broke up and most of the band went on to form Dawes, which isn't quite as gritty to me.
[:[00:36:46] Jeremy: This was like 2006, right? Or something?
[:[00:36:49] Jeremy: Yeah. Okay. This was an era where like this kind of thing... and I didn't know this band at the time, but this was the kind of thing that I listened to in that time. Like Pedro the Lion Built to Spill, like the Rosebuds... you know, kind of like, not always quiet, but like really good lyrical, well sung indie rock or folk or something like...
[:[00:37:25] Mahea: Yeah. I mean, that's the year I graduated high school. So I feel like there's like some like puberty related emotion, like turmoil. You know what I mean?
[:[00:37:35] Mahea: But I feel like when you're like 17 or 18, your emotions are like at a peak level of, um, just being mismanaged and misunderstood.
[:[00:38:04] Jeremy: Melancholic almost, yeah.
[:[00:38:12] Jeremy: There's a great line, he says something like, um, I might kill this, but it's like, "try and find some comfort here to walk amongst your fears" or something like that.
[:[00:38:45] Track: [music]
[:[00:39:04] Track: [music]
[:[00:39:14] But what I think the song does a really good job of capturing is that mood where you're like so overwhelmed, like either by anger or by like sorrow, that you kind of go a little bit numb and you almost know what sort of feelings you should be feeling but you can't get there yet.
[:[00:39:43] And the thing I think is most chilling about this: It starts out sounding so dreary and it ends on this happy major sound as though to tell you everything's okay.
[:[00:40:05] Mahea: It's weird because the harmony is pretty simple. It's all in the key of C major and it's all like very basic simple chords that play nicely together, which is something that I'm usually not that into, but the way that the chords are treated makes it so that you don't feel like "oh I'm just in C."
[:[00:40:45] It's kind of weird in a four measure chunk to have the second chord be the one that you sit on. Um, it would usually be the first one or the last one.
[:[00:41:15] And then at the very end, you get this very solid, just like... "here's the most basic chord that everybody knows." And you didn't know how to feel, but in the end, the song is telling you, you can feel okay, you know?
[:[00:41:32] Mahea: Totally. This song gives me chills every time. Like it sneaks up on me sometimes when my phone's on shuffle, and I always have to stop what I'm doing. I kind of hate that about it.
[:[00:41:56] Track: [music]
[:[00:42:26] Track: [music]
[:[00:42:47] Jeremy: The way that you just described it, I totally agree. Yeah. But it's like a subtle, sort of like caged version of it in a weird way.
[:[00:43:11] There's also this moment that, like... it always makes me uncomfortable because, you know, you like kind of like nod your head to a song or whatever. And I realized today for the first time in whatever, like, over a decade of listening to the song that, um, there's an extra beat, but it doesn't sound like an extra beat.
[:[00:43:41] Track: [music]
[:[00:43:49] Jeremy: Yeah, he just sits on it.
[:[00:43:59] Jeremy: It's a feel thing. Yeah, I know, but if everybody's feeling it and that just feels like the right thing at the moment, then everybody can lock in. It's like situational writing, you know? Like it doesn't really have to make sense on the page. If it feels like we need to sit on this beat for a moment, then it's going to feel organic every time that part comes around.
[:[00:44:22] Jeremy: It's magic.
[:[00:44:43] But yeah, every... every single time I hear this song, I feel my feelings.
[:[00:44:54] Mahea: This was a good theme. I'm glad you chose this because I feel better about so many things.
[:[00:45:06] Lana: I think we had a catharsis just by doing this show, no?
[:[00:45:16] We are just so honored that you joined us today.
[:[00:45:20] Mahea: You brought so many great thoughts and an excellent song choice and theme in. I want to hear what you're up to. How's music going for you these days?
[:[00:45:56] And, you know, actually, Soundfly was a big part in just helping me get these skills, you know, with learning about Ableton, learning about mixing, production, and everything.
[:[00:46:24] Mahea: That's exciting.
[:[00:46:33] And then I have my production stuff, like my songs that I want to, I'm going to be bringing out that are produced by me and everything else is done by me, recorded.
[:[00:47:00] Mahea: Very cool.
[:[00:47:02] Mahea: Well, I'm excited to hear more of that from you soon, as well as more of your music, which I always look forward to hearing when I see it pop up.
[:[00:47:16] Mahea: That's gonna do it for today, folks. I hope you enjoyed the episode and that it helped you find the catharsis you've been looking for.
[:[00:47:29] We'll be back again in two weeks with another episode and another theme. Until then and even after, I'm your host Maha Lee... and I can't help but wonder what time signature penguins walk in.
[:[00:48:11] Jeremy: This is starting to lean up against, uh, Themes and Variation After Dark. I know. I feel like every time I get on the pod, it's like... it can get a little, uh, iffy.
